When You Should (and Shouldn’t) Rebrand

You probably shouldn’t rebrand your social impact organization. 

Except, of course, when you really should. (wait, what?)

Because when the conditions are right, a rebrand can be one of the most powerful ways to reach your mission faster.

But how do you know when it’s the right time to invest in a rebrand?

Let’s be real: a rebrand is a big swing move. 

And it’s a tempting play to run when:

↳ You aren’t making the impact you need to

↳ You can’t seem to get your story or message across

↳ You aren’t getting engagement from customers or donors

↳ Your current brand feels dusty and dissonant

BUT

There are times when you absolutely, positively, shouldn’t do a rebrand. 

And if you try to push one through anyway, the results can be disastrous and might even cause a huge backlash from your community of supporters. 

In this week’s Episode of Designing Tomorrow, Jonathan and Eric discuss how you know if it’s the right time to invest in a rebrand for your social impact org. And maybe even more importantly, what to watch out for to make sure you are ready to make the most of it.

Episode Highlights 

• [00:00] – Introduction to the topic of rebranding social impact organizations.
• [01:07] – The importance of rebranding as a significant investment.
• [03:04] – The role of rebranding during organizational growth or inflection points.
• [05:20] – Rebranding as a solution for organizations stuck in a stagnation loop.
• [08:19] – Rebranding during large strategic shifts and the concept of nonprofit life cycles.
• [09:01] – Addressing outdated branding and content strategies.
• [12:02] – The importance of effectively communicating your story to supporters.
• [14:45] - Discusses the pitfalls of rebranding without a clear strategy or measurable ROI.
• [15:22] - Emphasizes the importance of having broad support within the organization for a rebrand to avoid pitfalls and ensure effectiveness.
• [18:29] - Advises on the integration of rebranding efforts with strategic planning for a cohesive approach.
• [23:44] - Highlights the necessity of adequate resources and long-term planning to sustain a rebrand beyond its initial launch.

Quotes

• “Any time you're going to do a rebrand as an organization, it’s kind of a big deal. It’s not something you should do casually.” - Eric Ressler [01:07]
• “If you’re in some kind of stagnation loop, a rebrand might help break through that ceiling.” - Eric Ressler [05:20]
• “When making a large strategic shift, you owe it to your community to communicate that change effectively.” - Eric Ressler [08:19]
• “The reflexive sort of doing it just because often comes when there’s one or a few really loud voices who are lobbying for it.” - Jonathan Hicken [15:38]
• “The rebrand itself is like putting in the planter boxes and planting the seeds. You’re not done then; you’ve just started. Building in an ongoing capacity for nurturing the brand is almost more important than the rebrand itself.” - Eric Ressler [25:32]

Resources

• Article - Dare to Be Bold: Making a Case for Better Social Impact Branding
• Article - Unexpected Ways a Rebrand Can Supercharge Your Team Culture
• Article - Navigating a Rebrand: Nine Common Mistakes to Avoid
• Book - Nonprofit Lifecycles: Stage-Based Wisdom for Nonprofit Capacity by  Susan Kenny Stevens

Transcript

Eric Ressler [00:00]:

Jonathan, a question we get all the time is, when is the right time to rebrand my social impact organization? And it's a question that I've spent a lot of time, literally years thinking about, and I felt like I needed to actually have a more solid answer for my clients and for our listeners. So I put together this outline for today's episode that kind of to me, encapsulates when the right times to do a rebrand are as an organization and when the wrong times are to do a rebrand.  Are you in?

Jonathan Hicken [00:31]:

Sounds juicy. Let's do it.

[00:55]:

So Jonathan, anytime you're going to do a rebrand as an organization, it's kind of a big deal. It's a big swing that you're taking as an organization. It's not something that you should do casually. Let's just say if you're going to do a rebrand, especially if you're an organization that's been around for a while, you're going to be investing a lot of time, energy, and money into the rebrand to do it well. But beyond that, you want it to be wildly successful. The last thing you want when you do a rebrand is to have it backfire or end up not resonating with your community or end up kind of moving your social impact organization back. Have you ever seen that happen in your experience or just kind of observing the social impact space?

Jonathan Hicken [01:37]:

Absolutely. In the social impact space, there's just like any business, I suspect there's a want, there's a need, there's a desire to be modern and to be new and to look good. And especially in the era that we're in now where there's a ton of noise online, we all want to stand out and you want to be a part of the zeitgeist. So yeah, there's this pulse, there's this impulse to get to rebrand and look better. So I'm really curious to hear what you have to say about when the right and wrong times are to do that

Eric Ressler [02:06]:

And to see if we agree, because I'm a little biased here because I love doing rebrands. It's largely what we do with clients and I've seen them be wildly successful. I would say we have a really good track record of rebranding organizations and seeing that investment really pay off in the short term and especially in the long term. But I also think there are times where a rebrand shouldn't be considered or it's not time to do a rebrand or even sometimes it maybe was the right time, but then the rebrand just didn't go well for one reason or another. So let's start with, I have some ideas around when you should do a rebrand as an organization, or at least should consider them. The first one for me is if you're an organization that's at some kind of growth point or inflection point, that is usually a really good time to do a rebrand. Agree

Jonathan Hicken [02:57]:

For the most part. For the most part. I mean, I think if you're constructing a massive pivot, then yeah, absolutely. I guess it depends. We should maybe spend a minute talking about what a rebrand means. If we're just talking about a visual rebrand, then sure. But if we're talking about a fundamental shift or pivot in the promise or the vision or the mission statement, it might be a different answer.

Eric Ressler [03:20]:

Yeah, I think that's a really good point because there's not just one flavor or scope or scale of a rebrand. To your point, sometimes a rebrand is a little bit more on the, let's say, cosmetic side of the spectrum and other times it's deeply strategic. I think my point of view is a little bit biased here because we don't usually do just cosmetic rebrands. At Cosmic, our rebrands are almost always at least largely strategic, if not primarily strategic. And what I mean by that is looking at things like target audience and mission and vision and values, exploring niche and positioning and differentiation. So really a lot of these things have a lot of overlap with what might traditionally be kind of in the purview of strategic planning. And that's, I think, a good thing. We want strategic planning and rebranding and brand strategy to all be kind of working together synergistically. And I think the reason I bring up a growth or an inflection point as being a good time to do a rebrand is because you're going to be doing a lot of that work anyway, almost certainly if you're at a big growth or inflection point as an organization or at least you should be. And so should you actually go ahead and do a full on rebrand? I mean, it depends so much on the context, but I think you should at least be considering it. I

Jonathan Hicken [04:34]:

Mean, at the very least, you've identified something for a leader to listen for, to pay attention to. If they are starting to think about undergoing a rebrand, are they considering truly a strategic rebrand or is this really cosmetic? I think that's just as a baseline as a really good question for any leader to ask themselves as they're considering something like this.

Eric Ressler [04:54]:

And I think also to just kind of add on to that a little bit, you might do a rebrand and not touch the logo or the name, right? I think a lot of times people think about rebrand. They're like, oh, we need a new logo. We do rebrands all the time where we don't touch the logo. And so we're getting a little bit into splitting hairs on terminology, but I think it's actually quite important. The second point that I think is really important is if you are in some kind of a, what I've called here, a stagnation loop. So let's say you are working really hard as an organization, but you're hitting some kind of ceiling or you feel like you're kind of spinning out in place, and I've seen a rebrand really help people break through this point. Do you think that's a good time to do a rebrand?

Jonathan Hicken [05:36]:

I do think that's a good time to do a rebrand provided that your organization still has a reason to exist, that you're still solving a real problem, whether it's for your community or the country or the environment or whatever provided that you really believe that your organization needs to exist. But it's just going to take a little bit refocusing or take a moment to really ask yourselves, are we serving our mission in the best way possible? Then absolutely. That's a good time to do the rebrand because you're right, it could spark your team to work differently. It could spark new board members to join or, I mean, there's a lot of reasons that you may energize your community more if you were to undergo a rebrand at that point.

Eric Ressler [06:19]:

Yeah, so I think your point here is asking the question, why are we in this situation in the first place where we've kind of stalled out? And I think that's exactly the kind of thing that you should be looking at as part of a rebrand, right? Again, not looking to rebrand is just being a cosmetic exercise, but really more of a strategic exercise. So those are exactly the kind of questions that we ask and try and dig into when we're working with clients. So we've definitely seen a rebrand help get people out of a doom loop in their organization. It's not necessarily going to be a silver bullet, but even just the process of going through a rebrand can often unearth some really key insights that might help outside of the rebrand itself too. This is a similar point, but if you're going through some kind of large strategic shift, so maybe not starting so much from a problem standpoint, but just an intentional strategic shift because the landscape has changed or the space has changed, or the world has changed, or your organization has changed, and for whatever reason you're making a huge pivot as an organization, to me, this is a really important time to look at your brand and think about how you might do a rebrand, agree or disagree.

Jonathan Hicken [07:33]:

I totally agree. I mean, all of these points you've made so far remind me of something called the nonprofit lifecycle. And I'm not going to be able to attribute this to the author in the moment, but there's this whole philosophy around how nonprofits start and grow, and eventually most of 'em have to either close or reinvent themselves in some way. And so all these points you're talking about are different points along this nonprofit life cycle. And so I do think there's an argument where if you're going through some strategic  shift, you may be at that point of sort of reinvention or rebirth, so to speak, and absolutely, that's a good time to think about doing a strategic rebrand.

Eric Ressler [08:08]:

And I think to pile onto that a little bit, if you are making a really large strategic shift, you kind of owe it to your community of supporters and your internal team to communicate about that strategic shift. And so if you're going to go through making any kind of big change, big pivot, there's a burden in my opinion, to do that intentionally from a branding and a communication standpoint. So I think that's another good argument for doing, at least considering a rebrand during that time. The other thing that we see a lot or that people come to us with is they say our current brand or a current website or our current content strategy, it's not accurately reflective of who we actually are today. It's kind of dusty, it's tired, it's out of date for whatever reason, it's dissonant with who we actually, or even more importantly, who we want to be in a year or three years. Do you think that's a good time to do a rebrand? I don't

Jonathan Hicken [09:01]:

Know. I mean, I have a question for you. Is that the cart leading the horse a little bit? Are we doing a rebrand to freshen up our content or does our content get freshened after we do a rebrand? Right? So that's a question for you. How do you address that with your clients when maybe that's what they're leading with, we need a new fresher content approach.

Eric Ressler [09:23]:

Yeah, I mean, in reflection to your question, often what people actually say to us is we're having a hard time telling our story, or the story we're telling is no longer reflective of what we're actually doing anymore. So anytime that your brand or your communications or your website feels behind where you are, to me, that's a huge problem because where I actually want that is I actually want it a year or two ahead of where you are. In my opinion, your brand and your communications and your message should be forward looking, not just telling the story of where you are today and especially not telling yesterday's story. So I think it really, of course, with all of these, it really depends so much on the context and the nuance of where you are as an organization, but generally speaking, we want the brand and your communications and your marketing to be forward looking. So if you feel like it is looking behind, or even just maybe accurately, but not in an inspiring way, capturing who you are today, to me, that's a big problem.

Jonathan Hicken [10:21]:

Yeah, look at the organization I run right now. We are attempting to execute a pivot and bring some new kinds of storytelling and new kinds of purpose to this science center, to this aquarium. And I think one of the places that we've actually failed to excel is in telling this story broadly and telling the story of how we're starting to change. So I'm actually paying close attention to this conversation right now because it's something that in the moment I think we could be doing a better job of and I could be leading more effectively.

Eric Ressler [10:51]:

And I think the question there always is, when do you start to put those little bits of communication out? And there's not a right answer to that. Some people are very comfortable. Building in public is a phrase you hear a lot where, and I think this is becoming more popular, where instead of waiting for everything to be perfectly polished and packaged up and doing this big kind of unveil, which can be effective as well, just being more transparent around like, Hey, here's going on at our organization right now. Here's the kind of things we're thinking about. Here's the questions we're asking. We don't even have all the answers yet, but what do you think community, right? So having a little bit more of a conversation with your supporters instead of this one-way, megaphone style approach to communications and marketing. So yeah, I mean, that's something that every leader is going to have to grapple with.

[11:38]:

Where do they fall on that spectrum of transparency, around what to share, what's in progress versus what to wait until decisions are made and everything's totally polished before sharing with the community. The last point that I have around when a good time to do rebrand is if you're having trouble getting your story across effectively to supporters of your community. We touched on this briefly, but I think it's worth going into in more detail. If you are struggling to get your community of supporters to understand your organization, to understand your mission, to understand even most importantly, your vision to make a solid case for support for your organization, I think that's a good time to do a rebrand. And I want to qualify that by saying I don't think a rebrand in and of itself necessarily will solve that problem. But again, I think the process of going through a rebrand effectively and strategically might help unearth where some of those disconnects might happen. Thoughts?

Jonathan Hicken [12:35]:

Yeah. This is one where actually I think it can be a trap for executive directors and marketing leaders because sometimes there's this impulse in the social impact space to just think to yourself, why don't they get it? Why we're important, we're doing good work. If only they understood, then they would support us. And that is a natural thing because we in the space are so passionate for the most part in broad strokes about the work we do. There's just like this moment where we're just, come on people.

Eric Ressler [13:06]:

And you get it right because you're doing it every day. You see it, you have the lived experience, you understand the impact intuitively, and sometimes it can feel like, how does everyone not see this the way that we

Jonathan Hicken [13:17]:

Do? Exactly. And so what you're proposing is taking a step back and being like, oh, I need to change. I need to change the way I'm telling the story. We need to go about sharing differently or better. And so that's a big shift to make as a leader. But I think it is a great time. It's a fantastic time to stop and do a rebrand in the way that you're describing it and

Eric Ressler [13:39]:

Really ask and deeply ask that question, why and where is this story not resonating? Is it because our communications are not effective? Is it because people need to be more educated around this area? Who would be supporters if they just knew more? Is it because our internal team isn't aligned around how we should be telling this story? And different stories are being told in different ways? So I think there's a lot to explore and unpack in that exercise, but I agree a lot of it is a mindset shift around we can't just assume people understand our work in the way that we do, and they never will. So your job as a marketer, as a communicator, as a leader is to do your best job possible and figuring out how to creatively get that story across and be open to experimenting and iterating and listening to the community to hear how do they want to receive the story, not necessarily how do you want to tell it.

[14:39]:

Okay. So those are some reasons why you should and times when you should do a rebrand, but there's also times when I don't think you should or scenarios or conditions where you're maybe not ready for a rebrand yet. And I think the first point I have here is a clear example of that. If you don't have a clear strategy or if you don't have any kind of return on investment planned for a rebrand and you're just doing it kind of reflexively, that is where I see rebrands go really wrong. Have you seen that happen? I

Jonathan Hicken [15:08]:

Have. And usually, and this might be one of your other reasons not to do a rebrand, but when that happens, usually I've noticed it's because that there's one very influential, maybe very loud voice in the room who's all about it. So whether that's a board member or someone on the executive team or a donor for nonprofits case who are just really, really excited about doing a rebrand, and especially in the case of a donor, the executive director, the hard thing is, is this going to be the project that keeps this donor engaged? Maybe we should do it right. That's a really hard line to toe. But I would say that the reflexive sort of doing it just because often comes when there's one or a few really loud voices who are lobbying for it.

Eric Ressler [15:54]:

That tracks with my experience, and this is honestly really tough. There have been a few cases in my experience running Cosmic where this happens, where people come in saying they want to do a rebrand. We're excited because we do rebrands all the time. We love doing them. But when I start to ask deeper questions and I get the sense that like, oh, there's not really a lot of strategic thought going into this rebrand internally at the organization, it's a huge red flag for me because it makes my job a lot harder to ensure that we're meeting those goals and that we are thinking about the rebrand strategically. So usually in that case, I'll start to ask some deeper probing questions around, well, why now? Why are you thinking this is the time? What are you hoping to get out of this? What business objectives are you actually hoping to make some improvement on after this process?

[16:40]:

And I do want to just say, rebrands are difficult to measure the ROI of a rebrand, right? Because in my opinion, you can't fully measure it. There's benefits beyond what you can even possibly measure. Not to say that you shouldn't try, and there aren't ways to do that. So I do think when approached effectively and strategically, a rebrand can be one of the most powerful things you could do as an organization. But the bigger point here is you just have to make sure that you are approaching it with intention and not doing it reflexively to mask other deeper problems that you have, not being clear about who you are or what your community needs or whatever the other issue might be. That's deeper. The second point is if you can't get holistic buy-in or strategic alignment across a meaningful enough portion of your organization, and maybe we can kind debate what the right sort of threshold might be there that I've seen go really wrong when the rebrand is kind of treated as a skunk works project, or it's almost even literally hidden from certain stakeholders within the organization and tried to just be pushed through behind the scenes.

In my opinion, that's a horrible way to do rebrand thoughts.

Jonathan Hicken [17:48]:

To me, that's an indicator that the stakeholders that are key to advancing the strategic foundation behind the rebrand are not bought in. And whether you're doing a rebrand or not, I mean, if you're doing a strategic shift, you got to have your most important stakeholders bought into it.

Eric Ressler [18:06]:

So I'm curious to hear your answer to this question. What is the right threshold, right? Because with these big swings like a rebrand, it's unlikely you're going to get a hundred percent buy-in from maybe even leadership or the entire team. There's going to be people saying, well, wait, why aren't we investing this time and energy and money over here instead, there's an urgent need here too. So how do you prioritize that as a leader?

Jonathan Hicken [18:30]:

I mean, just as a broad strokes statement, I would say it's like the 80 20 rule. So you got to have 80% of the people on board. And that's just a rule of thumb here. I'm thinking you can't be an executive director and champion a rebrand, especially if there's any sort of strategic shift, any sort of shift in the promise you're making to your community or your constituents or your customers. You need to have your board, whether that's a venture capital board or a volunteer board, you need to have these people bought in probably because these people should theoretically be your advisors, the people who are helping you make good decisions for the business, for the impact that you're trying to have. So if your most trusted inner circle are not on board with this, that should be a signal to you as a leader that you are not on the right track.

[19:18]:

I would say the same thing goes for your team and for the constituents themselves. I mean, you need to make sure that there is overlap in agreement of the shift. You're going to lose some people along the way. Anytime you pioneer any sort of shift of that kind of magnitude, at least the magnitude I have in my head, and I'm picturing you're going to lose people, and that's okay. That's part of the deal. That's the 80-20 part, that's the 20 in there. You might have some staff that leave. You might have some board members or donors who decide, this isn't for me anymore. And that's okay because if you've made the right decisions and you've made the right shift, you're going to find other people who are bought into this new niche.

Eric Ressler [19:59]:

I mean, maybe it's even good. I think if there's literally no pushback, maybe that's even a red flag of like, are we going big enough with this swing or are we playing it too safe?

Jonathan Hicken [20:09]:

Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. I think that's probably true. If you're not pissing somebody off, then you're probably not taking a big enough swing. I think that's good wisdom there.

Eric Ressler [20:18]:

Okay, so you want to piss about 20% of your stakeholders off and then you're in the right realm. Okay, got it.

[20:30]:

So another time that you shouldn't do a rebrand, and the timing of this is kind of interesting. If you're about to embark on a new strategic plan, there's a lot of overlap in my opinion, between strategic planning and a rebrand or maybe what I would describe as brand strategy. If you're doing strategic planning, in my opinion, you should be looking at things like target audience, your mission, your vision, your values, all these things you have to do to do a rebrand effectively, your positioning, your niche, your differentiation. But we've had people come to us, and I think at this point in basically any point in time before, during, or after a strategic planning process, we like to be kind of in the middle of that. So we don't want to do a rebrand if we know you're about to do a new strategic plan in three months after the rebrand, right? Because then there's going to be this whole new shift. We just went through all of this. The timing of that just doesn't line up. On the flip side though, we also don't want to do a rebrand after your strategic planning is done because then we don't have the ability to go along that path and even influence that path to some degree. So we think strategic planning and brand strategy work should be done with some amount of overlap. I'm sure you've seen this happen in all different ways. I'm curious to hear your perspectives.

Jonathan Hicken [21:48]:

Yeah, I mean, one of my questions for you is do you like being in the middle of the strategic planning process because it's good for cosmic or because it's good for the ultimate outcome of the project and no judgment, right? If it's good for the business, it's good for the business. I

Eric Ressler [22:03]:

Mean, yes is the answer. It's good for us because it's good for the outcome, and it allows us to have the most creative agency in the process and to make sure that we're not just falling into the trap of doing a cosmetic rebrand where we can bring some strategic input into the process as well as our creative input. And so I think we really just want it to line up effectively. And so there's a lot of nuance to this, as with most things around branding, but we don't want to be so deep in the strategic planning process that we're sitting in every single meeting, but we want to be briefed in and we want to have the ability to join some of those bigger picture decision making meetings when possible.

Jonathan Hicken [22:47]:

So I mean, the answer to your original question is I think that a strategic plan and a rebrand when combined creates something that's a sum that's greater than their parts. So a strategic shift without the storytelling component to it, and I'm using that term broadly, is not going to go as far. And likewise, a storytelling rebrand without the strategic foundation is not going to get you as far, both of those in a vacuum are going to do some good for your organization, I believe. But together, I mean it really accelerates both.

Eric Ressler [23:21]:

Yeah, that's where the true power comes from. Exactly.

[23:30]:

So the fourth reason where I don't think it's time to do a rebrand is essentially if you can't invest at the right level. So if you're feeling like you want to take a big swing and do a rebrand, but you just don't have the budget for it, you just don't have the buy-in for it, you don't have the time for it even, which maybe even in certain cases is a bigger barrier than budget, in my opinion. It's best to just not do it at all and wait and save and go fundraise to do it well and make sure that you're investing at the right level and what's the right level. Obviously that depends so much on the context, but I think at the end of the day you'll kind of know, right? You should do some research, figure out what the right budgets are, talk to different people who can help with the rebrand. But if you feel like you're having to cut corners on the rebrand, in my opinion, that same time and energy and money is better spent building the existing brand that you have, any thoughts there?

Jonathan Hicken [24:27]:

And I would say not just in the immediate period surrounding the rebrand, do I have enough money to invest now? Do I have enough time to invest now? But I would also say for any executive director or leader who's thinking about this right now, you got to consider the three year timeline as well. Do I have the staffing? Do I have the business plan to continue investing in this? Otherwise, it's going to feel really great after the first six months, and then it's just going to sit there and the website's going to get old and the content's going to get old. So you need to be really prepared to make a long-term commitment to this strategy. If not, I agree with you, it could end up doing harm,

Eric Ressler [25:07]:

Which is a perfect segue into my fifth point, which is don't do a rebrand if you don't have a plan or an ability to nurture the brand afterwards. Because I think a lot of times you do think about any big project like this as we're going to do the project and then we're done with the project. But with a rebrand, especially launching the rebrand is the beginning, right? You think about it, or I think about it a lot as a gardening project where the rebrand itself is putting in the planter boxes and planting the seeds and putting the soil in. You're not done then, right? You've just started. And so I think building in an ongoing capacity and energy for nurturing the brand is almost more important than the rebrand itself. And so if you don't plan for that or you can't plan for that, then in my opinion, you also should not be doing a rebrand at that point. I agree.

Jonathan Hicken [25:56]:

And one thing that goes through my head is I would look at my entire team, whether that's a smaller team or a big team, and ask myself, does every function at this organization feed into the new brand or the new strategy in some way? And how can I get the people in those positions to deeply understand how their day-to-day work is advancing the messaging and the niche and the promises that we're making in this new strategic plan? That's a really important step for any leader to launch something successfully, make sure everybody understands how they fit in.

Eric Ressler [26:30]:

So Jonathan, after hearing some of these ideas, I'm just curious, do you have any big takeaways from this discussion that are standing out to you?

Jonathan Hicken [26:39]:

Yeah, I mean, we are currently in the middle of, I am currently in the middle of debating whether or not to embark on a rebrand for my organization. So right now, I mean, the biggest question I have is do I have that three-year ability to commit to the resources and the time to continue advancing this thing? Otherwise, I would say check, check, check. We're ready to go. So thank you for you for stimulating these questions for myself.

Eric Ressler [27:03]:

Yeah, glad to be of service. And I think the one takeaway I do want to leave people with is there's always going to be barriers to doing a rebrand, right? There's always going to be reasons why you shouldn't, and you're going to just have to use your best judgment around. It's never going to line up perfectly. There's never a perfect time where all the rest of your work can go on pause and you can focus all of your energy on a rebrand. So that's not achievable. At the same time, you do want to make sure that you're ready. So I think you have to kind of weigh those two scenarios and find a middle ground that works, because I do think when the right scenarios line up and you're in the right time, a rebrand can be such a powerful way to further your mission and to garner more engagement and support and re-energize your team. So we've seen it massively transform organizations. We just want to make sure that when you do it, you're set up to do it as successfully as possible. Alright, Jonathan, well thanks for this. This was great. Let's do another one soon. Thanks, Eric.