Why Facts Don't Change Minds

In this episode, we're joined by Drew Dumsch, President and CEO of the Ecology School at River Bend Farm in Maine. Drew co-founded the organization 26 years ago with a premise that felt radical then and feels essential now: that ecological literacy — learning to read the landscape the way you learn to read a book — is foundational to creating engaged, compassionate citizens capable of understanding complex systems.

This conversation challenges the assumption that more information will save us. Instead, it offers a different path: one grounded in systems thinking, regenerative principles, and the radical act of kindness in a moment defined by casual cruelty.

Key Topics Discussed

• Why traditional environmental education fails to create lasting change

• The disconnect between climate knowledge and climate action

• Systems thinking vs. factual learning: what creates ecological literacy

• How regenerative principles extend beyond agriculture to learning and leadership

• Building bipartisan consensus in an era of toxic polarization

• The relationship between hope, understanding, and agency

• Meeting people where they are vs. demanding perfection

• Why collaboration (not competition) is the only path forward

• The role of compassion in climate action

• What it means to reimagine the future now, not later

Notable Quotes

"Being told facts is not the purpose of education. Facts are part of becoming a well-rounded human being and an engaged citizen, but I think a huge gap is that as a society, we lack the ability to understand systems." — Drew Dumsch

"You could create sustainability through fascism and cruelty. It may be sustainable, but is that a vibrant community you want to live in?" — Drew Dumsch

"Showing up to work every day is my act of rebellion." — Drew Dumsch

"Hope is based on both understanding of what can be and then agency to be a part of that." — Drew Dumsch

"People want the simple solution. That's boring. I think the level of diversity in solutions is exciting and creative." — Drew Dumsch

Resources

The Ecology School at River Bend Farm
Website: theecologyschool.org
LinkedIn: The Ecology School
Instagram: @ecologyschool

Mentioned in the Episode:

• The Triple Focus: A New Approach to Education by Daniel Goleman and Peter Senge

• Maine Outdoor School for All network

• Living Building Challenge

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Full Interview

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.

Eric Ressler: Let’s start with where you are right now. What’s it been like this year leading an environmental education organization?

Drew Dumsch: We’re an environmental living and learning center here in Saco, Maine. We bring people to our 313-acre farm to experience systems thinking and experiential education—conservation, regenerative farming, social-emotional wellness, environmental justice, climate action, food security. Everything I just listed is under attack right now. I don’t think there’s one thing that doesn’t feel like it’s at some level a little bit under attack.

We had a USDA grant that was frozen, then unfrozen. We were going to host a national conference called Women of the Water—women scientists doing aquaculture work funded through NOAA and Sea Grant—and they had to drop out. We’re also seeing the impact of the Canadian tourism boycott. Last month alone, we saw at least a 30% drop in tourism because a lot of our summer tourists come from Canada.

The need is there, but the funding—whether federal, state, or even foundations—there’s a lot of shifting. Trying to keep up with that is interesting, to say the least.

Eric Ressler: So how are you thinking about sustainability in this moment — not just environmental sustainability, but organizational sustainability?

Drew Dumsch: Having our own site has been transformative. We can convene the important work of environmental justice, climate action, food security, and conservation. We have 172 beds, five miles of trails, and we’re becoming a place where people doing this work can meet in an environment that embodies the work itself.

Our role as a convener is going to help us get through this. We can’t do this work alone, and we don’t want to. Fifteen years ago, we founded what’s now called the Maine Outdoor School for All network—a partnership of outdoor schools. This spring we got the Outdoor School for All Maine Students bill passed. It went 34 to 0 in the Maine Senate, completely unanimous. Then in the House, it passed 113 to 1. The fact that we could take something like getting kids outside and spending time at a place like ours that’s modeling climate action and farming, and get that level of bipartisan support, is encouraging.

The challenge is they gave us a $500 fiscal note after passing it. So we’re trying to figure out the funding part, but that kind of network power and collaborative power is going to mean more than ever.

I think about this almost every day as a father of two daughters: We’re all seeing the impacts of climate change in our lived experience—flooding, wildfires, heat waves. The science is clear. There’s consensus this is urgent. Yet policy doesn’t seem to keep up with the science. As someone in environmental education, what’s your theory of change?

Drew Dumsch: Being told facts is not the purpose of education. Facts are part of becoming a well-rounded human being and an engaged citizen, but I think a huge gap is that as a society, we lack the ability to understand systems.

Here’s a great example from early in my career. I’d do a food systems activity where kids would pick their favorite food item and trace it back to its source. I had a kid who loved potato chips. I could not get that kid out of the factory. The idea that his beautiful potato chip started as a tuber in the ground covered in dirt was reprehensible to him. As much as I like taking kids out into the forest or to tide pools, if I’m not doing a heavy dose of food systems education, I’m missing a huge part of that.

Teaching people the complexities of a system through simple, repeated, enjoyable experiences is what we’re about. Teaching how the world works, how ecosystems like a forest or a tide pool function when they’re healthy. We can take that to be less impactful as humans and more regenerative.

Eric Ressler: Talk to me about this idea of regenerative principles beyond just agriculture.

Drew Dumsch: I’ve recently embraced applying regenerative agriculture principles to leadership. The Living Building Challenge dorm and dining commons here are examples of regenerative design, but I’m really interested in regenerative learning—creating learning systems and communities based around how a healthy ecosystem functions. We’re trying to mimic more of nature instead of fighting it with herbicides and pesticides. What if we do organic? What if we do permaculture?

The wonderful opportunity is giving kids and adults experiences where they pick an apple from a tree, maybe cook that apple, see the sunrise over the river. These experiences, linking to bigger systems and community dynamics, are powerful because we can’t talk our way out of this and we can’t be told our way out of this. Sure, there’s plenty of education about climate change happening. But going back to learning theory, that’s just not how most people learn. Some people like you and I might pick up a policy paper on climate change, but so few people do that.

Eric Ressler: You mentioned this idea of norming experiences. What does that mean in practice?

Drew Dumsch: One thing we do at the Ecology School is give an enjoyable week-long experience living and learning together, and you’re norming things like eating farm-fresh food and being compassionate with each other. That’s really come to the forefront, especially in the last few months. There is no place for casual cruelty at all. Unfortunately, we’re seeing at very high levels constant casual cruelty.

I think one thing we do really well is model compassion — compassion for each other, compassion for the earth. I’ve got a great colleague, John DiGregorio, who’s the education director at the Great Smokies Institute down in Tennessee. We were hanging out one time and he said, “You know what we do in our sites really well? We do kindness.” That stuck with me.

Eric Ressler: That’s a powerful frame. You could create sustainability through other means, couldn’t you?

Drew Dumsch: You could create sustainability through fascism and cruelty. It may be sustainable, but is that a vibrant community you want to live in? You could force everyone to do solar power and electric cars—I don’t think that’s what we want, though we know that’s the smart solution.

There’s a really great book called The Triple Focus by Daniel Goleman, who did the social-emotional intelligence work, and Peter Senge, who’s the guru of systems thinking. They said basically the education of the future is just three things: understanding of self, understanding of others, and understanding of systems. If you can get that right, you’re going to have an amazing society.

Eric Ressler: You’ve talked about this idea of ecological literacy. What does that mean?

Drew Dumsch: Just as you learn your ABCs so you can read, if you learn what we call the ABCs of ecology, you can learn to read the landscape. It’s all about ecological literacy. If you’re illiterate, you can’t read. How can you be a fully functioning member of society? If you are ecologically literate, it brings a whole other level to your ability to understand the world and to walk within the world with intention and compassion.

When I started the Ecology School with my friends and colleagues Steve Siegel and Brad Bradway, we started with that level of intentionality. I’ve been at other centers where you get the kids out in the redwoods, do a tide pool, but there wasn’t that underpinning of why we’re doing this.

Eric Ressler: There seems to be a major schism between what people care about and their feeling of being able to do anything about it. How do we bridge that gap?

Drew Dumsch: Teenagers and young adults — the level of depression and anxiety is striking. Hope is based on both understanding of what can be and then agency to be a part of that. What we’re trying to do by grounding people in lived experience at River Bend Farm is start where people are, not where you want them to be.

There’s often with climate action this all-or-nothing mindset. If you’re not solar, if your house isn’t solar powered and you’re driving an electric car, you suck. But having a handful of people go super passive solar house, solar powered, electric car, versus a lot of people even taking a basic step like turning down their air conditioner or buying more local food—there’s impact there. The motivational force of change can happen when you’re modeling that.

Here at Riverbend, we’re reimagining the future now, not waiting. We often get these utopian visions: we’re just going to have solid-state batteries and carbon scrubbers, and it’s always about technology 10 or 20 years down the line. But we know right now that we have what we need to radically lower carbon and feed more people. It’s all about these little things. Multiple simple, enjoyable, inspirational, awe-inspiring experiences add up to some greater whole where you become more attached and connected to your community—not just the human community, but the world community, the natural community, the environment.

Eric Ressler: I think we often want simple solutions to climate change, but the reality requires multiple approaches.

Drew Dumsch: The wonderful thing is using food systems as an overarching lens. We knew we wanted a farm because applying ecological principles to growing food—that’s agroecology. If you get agroecology right, it’s a systemic and holistic approach. You create resilient communities, help address food insecurity, localize the economy. Agriculture is a huge driver of climate change, so getting agriculture right means you’re addressing climate change.

People want the simple solution. That’s boring. I think the level of diversity in solutions is exciting and creative. It’s such an opening for people to engage that there isn’t just one monolithic solution. We will all do this and the world will be better. It’s going to take multiple solutions. I know that’s hard for some people to embrace.

Eric Ressler: What’s giving you hope right now?

Drew Dumsch: My wife came up with this term because it’s definitely been hard — she used the word “demoralizing,” and I’m like, that’s it. I am demoralized. At the same time, as you can hear when I start talking with people like you who really care about this stuff and have kids and want their future to be bright—I’m motivated. Showing up to work every day is my act of rebellion.

If you want to be a benefactor to a place like the Ecology School, that is such an actionable way to do positive impact and invest in the future. I always tend to think of the glass is more half full than half empty.

When I helped found the Maine Outdoor School for All network 15 years ago, people would ask, “How can you work with 4-H and these other folks? Aren’t you competing?” It’s a growth model. If it’s an equity issue, every child should be able to go to an outdoor school in middle school to have that week-long inspiration, that rite of passage. It’s a growth model because only about 15 to 20% of kids in Maine get that now, and it’s definitely often the richer communities. So partnering together is actually not only collaborative, it’s good business.

Eric Ressler: What does deeper collaboration actually look like?

People say “we collaborate,” and often when you ask what they’re really doing, it’s barely collaboration. Collective impact is that deeper model. We’re lucky in New England, especially Maine—we’re a highly collaborative state in terms of environmental education, conservation work, and food systems work. There are a lot of cool organizations that play well with each other.

Eric Ressler: Before we wrap up, how would you like people to connect with you?

Drew Dumsch: Our web address is pretty easy: theecologyschool.org. We have a LinkedIn presence, Instagram, Facebook. I’m always looking for new ideas and figuring out how to convene people. I love what we do and I’m a big advocate of it. When we can bring more people into this work, it’s just wonderful.